Mixed Signals: Secrets of YouTube with CEO Neal Mohan

Max Tani :
Welcome to Mixed Signals from Semafor Media. I’m Max Tani, media editor here at Semafor, and with me as always is my boss, our editor-in-chief, Ben Smith. Hey, Ben.

Ben Smith:
Hey, Max.

Max Tani :
This week on the show, I know we’re both really excited. We’re going to be talking to the guy who is running the most popular streaming service in the world, and that’s YouTube’s CEO, Neal Mohan. We’re going to talk to him about YouTube’s huge podcast viewership growth, the FCC’s recent scary threats to investigate YouTube and if YouTube has changed its mind about how it polices its own content.

Ben Smith:
Yeah, he’s got an enormous amount on his plate, enormous amount of power in this media moment.

Max Tani :
Well, we’ll dig into all of that right after the break. Ben, usually, at this point in the show, we have a bit of a wind up about who this week’s guest is, in case people don’t really know who they are and why we’re interviewing them. I don’t really think that we have to explain to anybody what YouTube is.

Ben Smith:
Yeah, I mean, YouTube at this point is kind of the water in which the media industry swims. Arguably, I think the most important media company, certainly the most important platform in the world. I don’t know if you remember when Chris Balfe was on a few weeks ago, a founder of a company called Red Seat Ventures that Fox just bought. I think we asked him what the biggest surprise of the year was, and to him it was that there had not been a real challenge to YouTube’s just unquestioned dominance. It’s pretty remarkable.

Max Tani :
Yeah, there’s some small challengers in different lanes. YouTube has to compete for creators’ time and efforts with places like Instagram and TikTok. Spotify is trying to force or push some of its creators, the people it pays into uploading video podcasts, kind of works, kind of doesn’t, I don’t really know, but nobody is there that’s challenging YouTube as a whole, full stop.

Ben Smith:
I think our audience is still pretty audio though. People should tell us, Ben.Smith@Semafor.com, but I feel like sometimes perhaps today we will change locations and outfits, stealthily, and I never get any email about that, which makes me feel like we’re still safely audio first, but I don’t know.

Max Tani :
I don’t know, Ben, I think people want to see our different outfit changes and my different fits. I think that, that’s something that’s some people are demanding.

Ben Smith:
You’re getting the email. All right, fair enough.

Max Tani :
Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Well, I know we’re super excited. We recorded this interview a little bit earlier. Why don’t we just jump right into it?

Ben Smith:
Thank you so much for joining us, Neal.

Max Tani :
Yeah, Neal, thank you so much for coming on.

Neal Mohan:
It’s great to see you guys. Thanks for having me.

Ben Smith:
I think one of you YouTube’s main advantages, or maybe the central fact about YouTube right now even, it’s just the absolute scale. There’s just nothing like it in the world. You guys announced this statistic a couple of weeks ago. I think Max broke the story actually, that a billion people consumed some piece of podcast content on YouTube. I guess I wonder, because when you see these big digital media numbers and you always wonder what does that mean? I assume it means that 1 billion people will watch this interview, but if it doesn’t mean that, can you just tell us a little bit about that? What does that mean?

Neal Mohan:
Yeah, I mean, I think what I would just say about that is, and Ben, you and I have talked about this actually in the past. We view ourselves as in our own lane, basically. We’re a video sharing and watching platform, but the term video really means video and audio first and foremost. When we first started working with podcasters and thinking about podcast content, and now I’m going back, like before COVID even, it was primarily about audio. It was basically the fact that video and audio works the same way in terms of consumption sharing. There are different formats, but they can work the same way with recommendations, et cetera, and we wanted to cater to people who listen to that type of content, so non-music content, so to speak.
That’s where our investment and start with podcasts happened. Very early on, we made two or three, I think in retrospect, pretty significant bets. First that, and maybe because we’re YouTube, we bet on the fact that video podcasts would be a thing, that people would want to not just listen to a conversation, although lots of people do that on YouTube today, but also, see who’s having that conversation and just to feel part of that. Of course, I think COVID accelerated that a little bit when we were all locked in our homes and people just wanted to watch that happening. That was a big, big sort of bet. The second was that discovery would really matter, that it wasn’t just about a podcast that you heard from a friend or what have you, and then you checked it out and you have it in your feed now, that it was that serendipity would be an important part of podcast consumption just like it is for video consumption in general.
That was a pretty, I think in retrospect, a pretty salient aspect of our approach. Then the third piece, and if you think back to where podcasts came from around RSS feeds and things like that, we bet on the fact that podcasters are not different than video creators in the sense that they’d want to host their content somewhere and take advantage of all that comes with it. These three insights, I think were things that we bet on early on. I would say that our success in podcasts, including the number that you and Max were talking about, the billion users, was an overnight success many years in the making, and mostly because of those three points that I mentioned.

Ben Smith:
Those billion views, do you have a sense of what share of that is a 90-second clip in Shorts of Megyn Kelly owning me in an interview or something like that, and what share is somebody watching say more than half an hour? Do you have a sense of how much of that is in Shorts?

Neal Mohan:
I don’t have that breakout off the top of my head. Just in terms of how our watch time works on the platform, I imagine a lot of that is really the full podcast content. Whether somebody is watching all the way through the full three hours of a particular podcast or not, that obviously varies from podcast channel to channel and user behavior. In order to get to those types of numbers, especially things like 400 million hours of podcast content on television screens a month, you’re consuming a lot of content. It’s not just Shorts.

Max Tani :
Speaking of the podcast content on television and just YouTube content on television in general, what I’m really curious about is how are people watching it, not in terms of how are they watching it on TV, but are they watching it like television? We used to watch television where it’s like you put it on and flip through stuff and it’s ambiently on for hours. Are they just popping in to watch a quick video to show their friends? I’m sure it is all of the above, but what does the actual habit look like when it comes to watching YouTube on television?

Neal Mohan:
I think particularly for younger viewers, and as you know, our platform skews young in terms of the people that are on it every day. When they’re turning on the TV, they’re turning on YouTube and they’re consuming it the way that for them, that’s just their version of, that’s television for them. First and foremost, probably the most important trend that we see is it’s all forms of content. I think the expectation, especially a younger viewer who grew up with their TV experience really being YouTube expects to see their favorite creator, their favorite podcaster, their favorite gaming live stream, an NFL game, a new music video dropped by their favorite artists all in one place. I think that’s a pretty big significant consumer behavior shift in the sense that especially for younger viewers, that expectation is that all of that content will be in one place and it will show up in a way that’s intuitive to them in their feed of recommendations and how they consume it.
I think that hopefully, that gives you a flavor of that’s the canonical use case that we see. Underneath that, in terms of the type of content that’s consumed versus not, I would say that it’s actually almost virtually completely overlapping with if you’re a user and you’re on both mobile and watching it on a television screen, generally speaking, you’re watching a lot of the same content. Now, of course, if you’re watching an NFL game, you might prefer it on the living room screen just because you want to watch it on the biggest screen in your home. Your favorite creator is on your phone, or generally your favorite creator is on the television screen. That’s what I’d say about user behavior. The one thing that I have noticed is I think more and more creators are paying attention to the fact that in many cases, the majority of their watch time comes from television screens.
You’re starting to see this in terms of more of the cinematic palette that creators use. I mean, we have YouTubers that do really, really amazing work to take advantage of all that very large screen and everything they can do with the pixels on that large screen. You’re starting to see sort of longer form, more episodic content, of course, around all content verticals. That is obviously consumed on mobile and television, but I can see that TV is an aspect of that. You’re seeing lots of creators shooting 4K, for example. You’re seeing that in the nature of the content. Just one final point is it really is every type of content. One of the fastest growing screens for Shorts consumption is the television screen, so people watch a lot of Shorts, YouTube Shorts on TVs.

Ben Smith:
You’re describing a professionalization of the content in part though, more episodic, higher production, made for a bigger screen. Another way to say that I think sometimes is more expensive. I mean, is this converging with produced television in terms of among other things, that’s how much it costs to make?

Neal Mohan:
I think that there’s still, if you’re talking about traditional linear production budgets and things like that, I think frankly, there’s still a pretty meaningful delta. I think that some of that, and by the way, I don’t equate those two things, and you and I have talked about this in the past. I don’t equate those two things with “production and quality.”

Ben Smith:
You don’t think user-generated contents can get pushed out by higher and higher end stuff?

Neal Mohan:
I mean, we don’t see it. I think going back to my answer to Max’s earlier question, I think our viewers, the two billion people that come to YouTube every single day expect all of that content to be in one place. They could be watching a 30-minute episode of Michelle Khare’s Challenge Accepted, and then the next thing might be a five-minute vlog from an up-and-coming creator. The core essence of successful creators on YouTube are people who are able to establish this authentic connection with their fans, and all of their success really stems from that. That is a much, much higher correlation than production value or production budget or anything like that.

Ben Smith:
One thing that strikes me, we were talking to someone earlier on the show about what their biggest surprises were last year, and they said that it was that there had not been a significant challenge to YouTube, that YouTube’s dominance remained unchallenged. I do think it’s an extraordinary moment for you guys in terms of your centrality. When I look at that, I think, so everyone is gunning for you, whether it’s Fox with Tubi or TikTok is thinking, how do we grab a piece of YouTube’s business? I wonder in a serious way, what keeps you up at night? What competitors do you think of as serious? What do you worry about?

Neal Mohan:
First of all, the way you characterize it is, right, I mean, the way sort of just taking a step back. The way I think about it is I really do think that, and you could say that, yes, of course, Neal is going to say that, but I really do think that YouTube is in a bit of its own lane in terms of what we do for viewers, for creators, for our media partners, what have you. We’re not social media, we’re not a place you come to, to connect with your friends or family or what have you, share posts, et cetera. We’re not traditional television. We’re our own thing, this place for creation and sharing and watching a video content, and that’s what we do. As a result of that, I think that we see, as you point out, lots of competition, lots of dynamic changing companies from all of those pieces, from streaming, from short form video, from music, from other subscription services, et cetera.
I view all of those, but when it comes to your core question about what keeps me up at night, I really think that our lifeblood ultimately is about catering to our core constituents. If we are not delivering for our creators in two very fundamental ways, then we’re in trouble. Those two ways are really, are we helping creators build audience? Sometimes that takes time, but are we helping them steadily build an audience? YouTube should be the most efficient way to connect a creative idea or a creator with their fans no matter where they are in the world. Are we living up to that aspiration? Then the second is, which has been core to our mission from very early days, is are we helping them make money? We are the original and largest creator economy. It’s something that I’m very proud of.
We’ve paid out $70 billion to creators and media companies and all of our partners over the last three years. Those are the two things that we absolutely have to do, and then the flip side of that is you accomplish those two things if you’re actually delivering what you all, myself, what we all want as viewers. When you open up the app on your phone, when you open it up on the television screen, are you actually getting what you really want? What speaks to you as a viewer? In an essence, that’s what I focus on, that’s whenever I have conversations with creators or partners, that’s what we talk about. That’s what keeps me up at night. That’s what I focus on.

Max Tani :
The answer is not Netflix thinking about getting into podcasting as was reported a few weeks ago. Not so concerned about that necessarily.

Neal Mohan:
Well, I mean, it just goes back to what I said, which is if we can for those podcasters deliver on those two things that I mentioned, then we’re doing our jobs. That’s really that we want to focus on. I think our job is to actually build the best stage for them, and it’s our creators and our podcasters and our musicians and artists that stand on that stage.

Max Tani :
Regarding podcasts and habits, what kind of podcasts have you noticed do well on YouTube versus on Spotify or Apple? Is there a difference? Is it stuff that’s more visual? Do you pay attention to that at all, the differences between how these podcasts perform on different platforms?

Neal Mohan:
I don’t look at it specifically in terms of how a specific podcast does on YouTube relative to other platforms. I can tell you what we talk to our podcasters about. You hit on one of them, which is I do think video matters. Advice, I mean, and you guys are doing it with your channel. It’s not about the production quality, it’s not about sort of fancy cameras or what have you, but having video does make a difference. I think it has to do with the fact that, that tends to be more engaging and it gives consumers choice.
If they want to just listen to the audio, they can, but this way, they can watch what’s happening as well. That’s one aspect of it. I think the other is just what I say to all creators, which is if you have a creative vision or if you have an idea about what you want to talk about, what you want to share, then stick with it. Be steady about it. Be clear in terms of the contract you have with your audience. Don’t confuse them. That’s advice that we give to, I give to creators, but the same thing applies to podcasters on YouTube too.

Ben Smith:
I noticed we’re all going in and out of using the word program, podcast, show, creator. Does the word podcast still exist in five years or is it one of these words almost like blog that’s going to go away as all this stuff merges and professionalizes? If it’s like two people sitting on a camera talking to each other, is that a cable television show? Is podcast an enduring idea or is that sort of run its course?

Neal Mohan:
The way I think about it, Ben, is podcasters that are on YouTube are YouTubers. They, generally speaking, have the same questions, the same challenges, and the same asks of me as our broader YouTubers do as what you would call endemic creators to use the terminology of the day. I think of them that way. Is Theo Von a podcaster or is Theo Von a YouTuber? Is Lex a podcaster or is he a YouTuber? I think that podcasters who are really successful on YouTube, they think like creators. They really think as if they’re having that conversation with their guests, but really with the audience like the audience is there. That’s the way that I think about it. By the way, it comes up in a very tangible way, which is the features and the technology that we build to make them successful are quite similar. Yes, of course, we all, as viewers might or listeners might want certain types of controls. Podcasts tend to be episodic, those types of things, but frankly, that applies to other types of creators as well. That’s how I think about it.

Ben Smith:
Good television broadcasters also, too. It just feels like it’s all converging.

Neal Mohan:
Well, I mean, we work with all those “traditional media companies” on YouTube every day. By the way, and I’m saying YouTube, I’m not just talking about YouTube TV, I mean on the main YouTube experience. Again, there, I feel that the traditional media companies, the broadcast partners, et cetera, that view themselves as creators are the ones that end up being successful in our platform. Many of them operate dozens of channels around their characters or their IP or what have you, and they really think about themselves as YouTubers. In fact, when I have the conversation with our advertisers and brands, I say something similar, which is ultimately, long-term success on YouTube comes from the fact that you think of yourself as a creative entity first and foremost, really invest in your channel. Then of course, we have strategies around paid media and advertising products and investment in AI and those types of things. First and foremost, you want to engage your prospective customers with some creative storytelling, and YouTube is a great place for that.

Max Tani :
Well, let’s take a quick break and then we’ll come back for more with Neal.

Ben Smith:
You’ve said that the number one priority for YouTube is the safety of YouTube’s ecosystem. We’re in a moment when that’s actually a slightly unusual thing to say, and a lot of platforms are really backing off anything, like content moderation, probably because of pressure from this White House and this administration. I wonder if you feel like there’s tension between you and the administration on, I guess, particularly issues around public health?

Neal Mohan:
I’ll say a few things. First, and probably most important and really at the top is everything that we talk about, everything we just talked about in terms of the business, how content works on our platform, et cetera, is back to our mission statement, which is to give everyone a voice and show them the world. The first half of that mission statement is really about free expression and freedom of speech. I can say for myself, and I know for many of the colleagues that I work with every single day, that’s why we come to work. That’s the power of YouTube, that if you have an idea, you have a thought and you want to share it with the world, then YouTube is a place where you can go and share it without somebody telling you that you don’t sound the right way or you don’t look the right way or you’re saying the wrong thing or what have you.
That is core to our mission and everything that we do is ultimately, frankly, in service of that. It’s the reason why actually, I think we’ve had community guidelines from the very early days, and in order to allow creators to be able to share their ideas, have this free voice, freedom of expression, and to earn a sustainable living from it, we also have rules of the road in terms of how our platform works, like no porn or adult content or financial scams or what have you. Back to the question around when you turn on the TV, that’s not what consumers are looking for when they turn it on, and our advertisers, the brands that support that content aren’t looking for. Our approach to responsibility is with all of that in mind, but ultimately, towards this goal of freedom of expression. That’s how I’ve always looked at it, and even in years past when you and I have talked about it, hopefully I’ve been consistent in terms of that core thesis.
The other aspect of that is implicit in your question around you talked about health information. A lot of that is about the broader context. YouTube, the reason why we’re the epicenter of culture is because we reflect what’s happening in the world. What was happening in the world in March of 2020 is very different than what’s happening in the world in March of 2025. That’s a long period of time. It was a very, very different world back then where nobody knew what was going on. Frankly, people were dying in hospitals every single day in New York City. People were climbing 5G cell towers because they thought they were getting some disease from cell towers.
It was a pretty crazy time. Having health related policies that apply to that time is very different than five years from now where we’ve deprecated frankly almost all of our COVID-19 policies. What I’m trying to point out is that it’s, at least from my standpoint, staying true to the principles of free speech, but also, facilitating these community guidelines, but also then being flexible and cognizant of the broader context is really important. That’s always been our approach at YouTube and that’s how we think about these questions around content.

Ben Smith:
There were some RFK Jr. videos I think that you took down back in the before times, and as you say in these very chaotic moments, do you think you’re going to restore those?

Neal Mohan:
I can’t speak to the specific videos, but on a policy standpoint, as I said, vast majority of those, of anything that was related, and I don’t know the context of these videos, but anything related to our COVID-19 policies are things that we have deprecated. Frankly, every time I share that, it sounds pretty natural to people when I say that because again, I think most people would recognize that where the world was five years ago is very different than where it is today, and I think that’s pretty important.

Ben Smith:
Do you think it was a mistake? I don’t mean by YouTube because I think I remember I talked to Mark Zuckerberg early in the pandemic and had a conversation about, wow, maybe amid all the debates over speech, at least the public health stuff is so obvious, it’s so easy. We can rely on the doctors. In retrospect, not only was that, I think there were legitimate debates over public health and maybe that aperture should have been wider, but also it sure seems like attempts to shield people from “misinformation” and from absolute lunacy, just as a matter of fact, backfired, and vaccine acceptance in the US right now is lower than it’s been in a long time. Do you think in a big picture sense, did we get that whole misinformation thing wrong?

Neal Mohan:
Again, I think that the way I’ve thought about it is the context really mattered. Again, back to that time period, science and knowledge around what was happening to all of us, our families, our friends, was being created by the week. It was a pretty remarkable time if you think about if you just rewind back to March of 2020, at the precipice of this world-changing event, and I’m sure books will be written for decades to come in terms of its impact on all of us as human beings, society, all those types of pieces.
I think the one thing, again, just back to YouTube that I would say that is a bit, the nature of YouTube I think is different than perhaps some of these other platforms in the sense that it’s a place where people come to listen to Taylor Swift or Sabrina Carpenter or watch an NFL game or watch our favorite gaming stream or what have you. Just the use cases and how people engage with YouTube was different than some of the other platforms. I think the nature of the challenges presented to us was just a bit different than it might’ve been on some of the other platforms as well. I think the context of how users use and what exists on these platforms and how they work is also important when you have this broader conversation around content.

Max Tani :
I want to ask you about something that’s in the news. I’m sure you’re aware of this, Great American Media, which is a Christian broadcaster, recently filed a complaint to the FCC claiming that YouTube TV was essentially discriminating against Christian programming by refusing, and this is what they’re saying, refusing to carry its cable networks. The new FCC commissioner, Brendan Carr said on Newsmax last week that he believes that the complaint is it’s credible. I’m curious how you’re thinking about that and what your response is to that.

Neal Mohan:
I can say hopefully pretty plainly that we don’t discriminate on the basis of that sort of content. We’re in, I think productive conversations with Great American Family Network around YouTube TV, which is I think what the central question was around. We base those decisions the way that you would imagine a distributor like YouTube TV would, which is based on business considerations in terms of audience and audience demand and what have you, but we’re having productive conversations. I look forward to having my team explain that to the FCC in detail. That’s really how that conversation has gone on the YouTube TV side. Great American Family has a channel on YouTube. It’s quite a large channel. I think it’s over 100,000 subs, millions of views. Of course, from a reach standpoint, the aperture of YouTube, the main app is orders of magnitude larger than YouTube TV, but we’re in productive conversations with them on the YouTube TV side as well.

Ben Smith:
Our growth strategy for this podcast obviously is torturing media executives with dicey policy questions, and I think we actually do have a pretty core audience of people who are very engaged with these issues around media and marketing and telecoms. Do you have any advice for us on growing a big YouTube audience beyond that? Because I’m not sure that’s totally working in terms of YouTube virality.

Max Tani :
Do we have to do the Mr. Beast freeze frames? Do we have to have Ben doing the kind of extremely expressive faces? Is that going to be the key to our success, do you think, Neal?

Neal Mohan:
I like your thumbnails. I did look at the-

Max Tani :
The thumbnails are okay, yeah.

Neal Mohan:
I looked at the channel. I’ve been a subscriber of the channel, so I might be in your core audience, and so.

Ben Smith:
You’re definitely right in the core audience, so I’m very pleased that you’re watching.

Neal Mohan:
Actually, in all seriousness, I would say a couple of things. I do think that some level of predictability with your audience is really what truly matters, especially as you’re getting started. I do like the fact that you guys are doing video, I think that matters. It just gives you, I think, this natural use case on all surfaces, at least as it relates to YouTube. I think that’s an important piece. Look, I think having a short strategy really, even if it’s a pointer back to kind your long form is another important aspect of it. Those are some of the core pieces that I have, but I really think that the analogy I like to use is your YouTube channel is more like a library than it is like a feed or a trend of the day type of a concept.
Its value should only increase over time. I do think patience is an important aspect of it, and you’re going to have probably a much larger portion of your audience discovering that channel a year from now than today, and it’s important to continue to have that big picture in mind as you’re growing it. The other thing, and the last thing that I’ll say is because we are creator forward, I do think the authentic personality your guys’ faces and how you banter back and forth and audience expectations around that, that type of thing matters on YouTube. That’s my whirlwind tour of how you should think about your channel grow.

Ben Smith:
I appreciate it, and I’m supposed to make this really meta, so to speak. We should disclose that our sponsor is in fact Google, your parent company, which has not at all affected the content of this interview.

Max Tani :
Well, Neal, thank you. You’ve given an interview and business advice to us, so we really appreciate it. We should thank you twice.

Ben Smith:
Thanks, Neal.

Neal Mohan:
Thanks, Max. Thanks, Ben. Great to be here.

Ben Smith:
Max, I was thinking, you’re in some ways more of a podcast native than I am. You started your career as an intern at the Gabfest. You’ve been in and out of podcasts for a long time. Do you fundamentally buy this idea that YouTube is going to swallow what I had thought of as an audio medium?

Max Tani :
I think that’s a really interesting question, and that is the question that’s driving a lot of conversations in our business. I think that it is true that YouTube has figured out the thing that has been the most difficult for podcasting over the course of its lifespan, which is discovery. That is truly the thing that it mastered that Spotify can’t compete with, that Apple can’t and doesn’t really want to compete with. Up until now, truly, the way to discover a podcast was somebody told you about it, “Oh, there’s this great podcast that I’ve been listening to,” or a list somewhere of the best new podcasts of the year, or something like Vulture.
I do think that YouTube has mastered that, and so it has become a great place for discovering podcast content, which does feel new and unique. I do think that there is an element to which podcasting as audio only will never go away because so much of the ways that people consume it, it truly is at the gym, in their car, doing an errand. My mom listening on two X speed, which is horrifying. She listens to the show on 1.5 X.

Ben Smith:
Maybe you sound like you did when you were a little kid.

Max Tani :
Yes, exactly. Yes, it brings back some memories. I think that it’s never going to totally just become fully television, but I mean, I think you’re definitely going to continue to see that convergence. I don’t know Ben, what do think?

Ben Smith:
Yeah, I think so. It’s funny because I think the car for me, for a lot of people is the main use case, and I think self-driving cars are just going to wipe out. The radio business is built on driving, and I think that, yeah, I don’t know, maybe audio-only podcast. I’m so sorry for Matt Bellamy, who, by the way, people were very excited to see what he looked like, which was amazing, a Hollywood podcaster who was on the other day, but who is audio only. I wonder if a sort of audio-only podcast becomes a tweet print magazine or something.

Max Tani :
Yeah, it’s true though. At the same time, again, it isn’t that interesting to watch several people in front of a microphone despite the fact that millions of people, clearly billions of people, clearly do. I just think that there’s still plenty of things that you have to do in your life while not looking at a screen that will continue to favor audio only. I don’t know, I feel like the opposite of you, Ben. Most of my podcast consumption is at the gym and walking down the street in New York City. I’m not watching a tiny little thing on my phone. I don’t know.

Ben Smith:
I see more and more people walking down the street in New York watching a tiny little thing on their phones.

Max Tani :
Yeah, it’s true.

Ben Smith:
I think the imperatives of video start to take over. You can listen to CNN as audio, but obviously, they’re producing a visual medium and you miss stuff. I think there’ll be an inevitable pull in that direction. We’ll see.

Max Tani :
I’m curious what you thought about the most newsy part of the interview, which was his comments about the FCC and about the FCC and Brendan Carr realizing that despite all of the little things it’s doing to these declining media companies, that the real place where it could make some noise is YouTube where a much larger share of people are consuming content. To me, I thought that the most interesting thing about the whole saga is that the FCC wants to get into the game there because they know that it’s relevant, but I’m curious what you thought about both the recent regulatory threat and also, Neal’s answer.

Ben Smith:
The FCC, which regulates broadcasts, and so it’s a little bit boxed out from all the interesting stuff in media, has found through YouTube TV, I think at least thinks they have a way into harassing YouTube. I would say, I mean, some things in Trump world are very new. I think some of what the FCC is trying to do is very new. This particular thing is very old, which is to say people who want broadcast carriage using friendly political agencies or members of Congress to make noise on their behalf. There are broadcasters like Democrat, I think Byron Allen has long employed arguments and public arguments and statements that people who don’t give him carriage are racist in the context of these complicated carriage negotiations, which are ultimately about money, as Neal said.
I mean, it’s not a particularly savory part of media, but what you would it is, I mean, I think the thing that if you’re someone like Neal who spent his career in the unregulated world of digital media. I mean, I thought he dealt exactly the way a regulated broadcaster deals, which is like, well, we look forward to talking to the regulators and we’re in talks with this small broadcaster, which who knows if they actually wanted to carry or was commercially made sense to carry, but if it’s going to get the regulators off their backs, they’ll carry them.

Max Tani :
I feel like to show my own cards here, my own bias, I think I found Neal’s argument to be very compelling. Obviously, having just written this article for Semafor about the growth of conservative media aimed at younger women, I was down a rabbit hole on Christian content for younger Christian women, which bleeds into some of this kind of Ma-ha, like trad-wife stuff, and I found the idea that YouTube was not friendly to a Christian conservative content to be not aligned with my experience as somebody who had consumed a lot of stuff on YouTube itself, which is of course, the bigger platform.

Ben Smith:
I mean, it’s the oldest trick in the book to get friendly regulators to lean on broadcasters to give you carriage. What’s interesting is that Google, YouTube, are now in their crosshairs in a serious way having been this unregulated space over on the internet.

Max Tani :
This is what happens when you win, though.

Ben Smith:
Totally.

Max Tani :
This is like everybody perks up when they notice.

Ben Smith:
Heavy is the head.

Max Tani :
Exactly.

Ben Smith:
Yeah, for sure. For sure. I think the basic reality of YouTube to me, and the interesting thing is how unchallenged they are, but one big challenge, and we got at this a bit when Neal was talking about how the content is moving up market. They’re moving in the direction inevitably, I think, of Netflix. Do you think Netflix is ultimately the real challenger to YouTube that, that’s really going to be the Titanic media struggle of the next generation?

Max Tani :
I think it seems like that’s what’s playing out now because it’s a battle for all of our attention and where we spend our time. We can see signs that Netflix feels, in some ways threatened by YouTube just by what some of their actions are. There was a report in Business Insider a few months ago that made some waves about how Netflix was thinking about getting into podcasting, which I don’t quite understand how that would work. From the perspective of Netflix, you got to think like, okay, we make all of these stand-up specials. We pay all these comedians to do it. The rest of the time, they’re all just producing their own content just for free on this other platform, essentially. It does seem like when it comes to hours spent with these different services and platforms, that YouTube is its obvious competitor, and that in some ways, YouTube has one in terms of attention, but that’s because they do have a better business. They don’t spend any money on their content.

Ben Smith:
I mean, that is it, right, Max? You can’t beat free.

Max Tani :
Yeah. Well, that is it for us this week. We wanted to thank Neal Mohan, of course, for joining us. Thanks for listening to Mixed Signals from Semafor Media. Our show is produced amazingly expertly by Sheena Ozaki, with special thanks to Max Toomey, Britta Galanis, Chad Lewis, Rachel Oppenheim, Anna Pezzino, Garrett Wiley, Jules Zern, and Tory Core. Our engineer is Rick Kwan, and our theme music is by Billy Libby. Our public editor, as always, is Brendan Carr.

Ben Smith:
It’s good to remain unregulated, however, and if you like Mixed Signals, please follow us wherever you get your podcasts, and feel free to review us.

Max Tani :
If you want more, you can sign up for Semafor’s media newsletter, which publishes every Sunday night.