The News
The Pod — as Democrats who follow Obama veterans’ Pod Save America call it — worked to save America in 2020 by getting Joe Biden elected. Now its hosts want to do it again by getting him to step aside.
In the two weeks since Biden’s disastrous debate performance against Donald Trump, three of the high-profile hosts of Pod Save America and founders of its parent Crooked Media have concluded that the president can’t run the kind of campaign he needs to beat Donald Trump, and the Democrats need an alternative.
The trio — Jon Favreau, Jon Lovett, and Tommy Vietor— are far from alone in the media in their calls for Biden to step aside. (Many liberal pundits at places like the New York Times were doing it before the debate even concluded). But their criticism hits particularly hard: The Crooked Media trio remain deeply tapped into Democratic politics, and have created a friendly platform for Democratic politicians and officials since the organization’s founding in 2017. And when they have spoken out against Biden, fairly or not, they have reminded some in Biden-world of the rifts between him and President Barack Obama over the years.
On Wednesday, Semafor spoke with Crooked Media co-founder and Pod Save America cohost Tommy Vietor about their outspoken advocacy since the debate for Democrats to select a candidate who would have a better chance of defeating Donald Trump, and how it was impacting their media company.
The questions and answers have been slightly edited for clarity.
Max Tani: I’m curious how you guys got to this place and what it means that you guys are taking a critical view of Biden’s candidacy and ability to beat Trump at this point.
Tommy Vietor: It’s a challenging moment. We are about political engagement, encouraging people to get involved in politics and knocking on doors and campaigning. And that message is not really coming through from us at the moment, because there is this concern about Biden’s ability to win. But the reason we’re speaking honestly, is solely because the stakes are so high.
And don’t take my word for it. Joe Biden’s message is that the future of American democracy rides on the outcome of this election, right? Given those stakes, how can you not have an honest conversation about the nominee and his ability to win? And I would be lying if I said I didn’t worry a lot about how some of the things I say or tweet land with friends of mine who are working in the White House or working on the campaign? Yeah, in part because they’re working way harder than I am. I’ve been on a presidential campaign. I’ve worked in the White House. They are grinding it out every day and are just trying to get this thing over the finish line, and if I make their lives harder, I genuinely feel bad about and guilty about that. But I think all of us feel like we have to.
We have this window of time. The strategic decision made by the Biden campaign to have this debate so early — there is this window where we could make a change. And my concern is we all watched the debate and saw how bad it was, but Biden’s subsequent off teleprompter interviews and performances have also been bad. And we cannot grade him on a curve.
After the campaign is over, we all own the outcome equally. It doesn’t matter what you were doing beforehand. And so I think that’s just kind of where we’re coming from.
MT: You don’t necessarily want to wake up on November 6 and think like, ‘Oh, my God, I had those concerns then but I thought, for the good of party unity I didn’t say anything.’ Is that kind of the way that you’re thinking about it?
TV: Yeah. If Joe Biden decides that he is not going anywhere, and he is formally nominated in August, after that, we will saddle up and fight for him and encourage people to knock doors and donate and support the campaign. He obviously would be a better president than Donald Trump. There’s absolutely no question about that. The question is just: Is he the best person to run this race now? Is he capable of running the kind of campaign that you need to run to defeat Donald Trump, especially when you are behind and behind by a lot?
And there are these fundamental concerns about age and the ability to do the job for four more years that I personally do not think are fixable. I don’t think you can convince people who have decided that you are too old that you are not too old.
MT: You guys have built a unique kind of media brand that’s both a media company in the traditional sense, but also it’s tied to electoral politics. So I’m really curious what you’re hearing from your audience. Are people pissed, are people quietly encouraging you to keep doing what you’re doing? What’s the response been?
TV: A few thoughts. One: I think for a long time the race was kind of calcified. But 50 million or more people tuned into the debate, and so I think since that time, just general interest in this election and what’s happening has dramatically increased. So we’re seeing numbers go up in terms of downloads and YouTube views and audience generally tuning in and paying attention.
There are definitely some people who are furious and will say, ‘I’m unsubscribing, I’m never listening again.’ There’s a woman who called us all traitors. There are people who somehow have decided that criticism of Joe Biden is racist or sexist. I’m not sure how you kind of get yourself to that place.
There’s a loud vocal minority, but I think this is where the Biden campaign’s response is just factually inaccurate. The concern about his age and ability to win is broadly held in the country. Your average listener watched the debate and felt the way we all did, which was deep concern about our ability to win the race. One of the things we heard from the very first days of the show, was — when it feels like the world is going crazy around you, and you hear people talking about politics and expressing the same feelings and concerns you have, it makes you feel like you’re not alone. This is a similar case.
Especially during the Trump era, so much was happening every single day, massive, you know, scoops and stories coming out, we tried to help people sort out what mattered and what didn’t. And then when the 2020 primaries came along, we tried to help people understand where the various Democratic candidates were on policy and make a choice.
I would just note one of my feelings. I don’t want to speak for the other guys, but I feel like I wasn’t as honest in 2016 as I could have been and should have been about my concerns about that campaign. That’s not to say that I secretly knew Trump was going to win. I did not. I read the same polling as everyone else. But we ran against [Hillary Clinton], we knew the risks of her candidacy, and I didn’t speak up about those. And when the Comey letter dropped weeks before the election, you didn’t want to alarm people, but we should have all been alarmed.
MT: You mentioned that it’s been difficult for you guys. Obviously you have fans and a lot of people who listen and care about what you’re saying who are still within establishment Democratic politics. A lot of the people you worked with or you know through this kind of side media career. What’s the response you’re hearing from them?
TV: I think it kind of runs the gamut. I don’t want to name names. Someone like [White House Communications Director] Ben LaBolt — he’s a professional. Gets back to us right away, argues his case, he’s great about it. Couldn’t be a better guy. There are people on the Biden campaign who I just no longer hear back from. And that could be because they’re really busy, or it could be sending a message.
I think the people I kind of worry about are people who are close friends and people I care about, and then the younger generation of field organizers and volunteers/ I don’t want them to feel demoralized. Come November we’re all in this together. We’re all gonna be fighting the same fight. We just have this narrow window to potentially make a change at a time when it feels super important.
MT: It seems like you guys have a pretty clear point of view on what you think should happen. I’m curious if that was something you guys felt immediately like, ‘Oh, my God, this debate sucks. We got to see if there’s another nominee,’ or if that also kind of came from the response — the fumbling of the interview, the slow response from the Biden team to address some of these kinds of concerns.
TV: I think that the Biden campaign has done all that they can possibly do at a staff level to respond to this. We’re all watching in real time, deeply concerned about Biden’s ability to just sort of communicate clearly and deliver a message in this campaign. I think all of us wanted to wait a couple of days before saying you should drop out to see how they responded. And I think everybody’s view was solidified after watching the ABC News interview, which I just think objectively, did not go well.
MT: What did you make about that decision, by the way? I thought it was a little strange that they decided to do the interview the day after the fourth of July. It was a holiday Friday. If the Biden campaign wanted the most possible viewers for it, I think that was maybe not the day to do it. But I don’t know, I’m not a comms professional, you were. I thought it was a strange move.
TV: I thought it was strange too. The debate was Thursday. Me, Lovett, and Dan recorded something Monday and we sort of talked about what Biden could or should be doing. And the advice was super obvious: Do an hour long press conference, do 60 Minutes, major interview. And the fact that they hadn’t done it yet suggested to me that they didn’t think their candidate was capable of doing those things successfully. I don’t chalk the delay up to any kind of staffing problem. I chalk it up to a candidate problem.
Doing the phoner with Morning Joe was very smart. As much as they say they don’t care about elite opinion. Of course, you care about elite opinion, right? You don’t want Tom Friedman and the New York Times ed-board drilling you. You don’t want members of Congress expressing concern. So calling into Morning Joe is a great way to mainline into the brain of the Beltway. Yeah, that should’ve happened the day after the debate.
MT: Was the slow response a result of not getting how bad it was? Or was it not having the capacity to do it as quickly as necessary because of the problems with the candidate?
TV: I don’t know. I suspect it’s because they just didn’t have confidence that the candidate could pull it off. It’s just so obvious to be like you at some point you have to do a press conference. But tomorrow at the end of the NATO Summit — waiting that long raises the stakes on it. The obvious advice that everyone’s been giving Biden from the beginning is get out there more, do more interviews or events. The gaffes become less important when you’re constantly talking. And the fact that he has not been doing that for months and months now suggests that they don’t think he’s capable of pulling it off. But even on Morning Joe you could hear him reading talking points, it wasn’t going that smoothly.
MT: Seeing what you guys were saying after the debate — it struck me that you were more in line with the media pundit class than the Democratic Party. I was kind of like ‘These guys have finally done the thing that happens when political people spend enough time in media, which is truly becoming a member of the media.’ I was curious if you think you were charting that course as well, or if you feel differently.
TV: I think we’ve always been kind of a hybrid. I think we’re Democrats first and foremost. I agree with Joe Biden on every policy. I think he’s done an amazing job as president. Full stop. I think the dynamic I saw, at least on the internet, was you had unanimous opinion that the debate was really bad and that we should be having this conversation about what to do about it. And then people with direct ties to the Democratic Party, whether they be pundits or campaign staffers or people who feared getting the fallout from the party if they were to be critical, towed the party line about ’This was just a bad hour and a half, but a great four years.’
Is there a version of Crooked Media where we bite our tongues and repeat talking points? Maybe that gets us a Biden interview? Sure, but that’s not how I want to operate, that’s not how any of us want to operate. I think our audience is smart, they’re super politically engaged people. If we came on the next day and said, ‘Everything’s fine. Don’t worry about it.’ They wouldn’t believe it.
MT: You kind of got at this in the beginning, but I just, I wanted to ask clearly: I feel like this was got to be difficult and uncomfortable, not only because you have friends who work in Democratic politics, but also because there is a segment of your audience that that disagrees with you, or feels that this is not news or views that they want to hear.
TV: If you could strip out the emotion from this conversation and just be like, Candidate A, Candidate B. Here are the numbers. It’s a no brainer to me.
What complicates this is the people and the relationships. I personally feel badly doing something that hurts my friends. I can’t help but think about who Joe Biden is, and how much and how personal this decision is for him. Because this is a guy who feels in his soul that he’s been a great president, and I believe him when he says he thinks he could beat Donald Trump. But having someone tell you you’re too old to keep doing the job you want to keep doing — that’s a very painful personal conversation. That’s essentially what this is. And so I don’t think we should expect him to be happy about this. But I think where I land on it is, it’s not about Joe Biden, it’s not about anyone working for him. It’s about the future of the country.
MT: I’ve thought a lot about the kind of diminishment of the establishment media, the fact that fewer people every year watch the evening news, fewer people are watching cable television, there’s increasing media fragmentation. There isn’t as much of a “mainstream media” as there used to be. What’s going on now has reminded me — the media has been able to steer some of the conversation, put pressure, drive attention. How much do you think that the pressure from the media, places the New York Times, CNN — do you think that’s made a difference?
TV: I do. I think if the New York Times wrote an editorial saying Trump should go, he might care a little bit, but none of his voters would give a shit, and his campaign wouldn’t give a shit. I think that Democrats do care about what the New York Times ed-board thinks, or what Tom Friedman thinks, or what you know is said on MSNBC, because we believe in the media, and think it’s an important part of American democracy, and it’s an institution that’s valuable and needs to be preserved.