Q&A
Max Tani: You’re here at the Advertising Festival. Your shows are about missing persons, crime, dark stuff. Why are advertisers still interested when normally they’re pretty scared of this kind of dark content?
Ashley Flowers: Because we’re doing the dark content a different way. When I got into podcasting and true crime, I wanted to change the way it was consumed and it was created.
Long before I even did podcasting, I was a true crime enthusiast. I was very into this from a young age. And I always had this weight on me that I was like — if I’m going to take from this community as entertainment, I have to give back. So for a long time, I volunteered at my local Crime Stoppers, I was on the board of directors. That kind of philosophy went into becoming a creator. And so the way that I view true crime is in a way that is actually changing the world for the better.
So it is about educating our audience. It’s about working with nonprofits, it’s about helping to solve cases. And so I think that our advertisers recognize that. They also recognize that they’re coming to a show that our audience is actively choosing. We have one of the most engaged audiences. This is the content that they want. They are humans, I’m a human. So I can talk about dark content, and then do my Pampers ad. I’m also a mom, outside of this. And I think that that really resonates with people. And, since the very beginning, we’ve been really thoughtful about our ad placements. I was a huge fan of podcasts before I ever made my own. And we don’t just like slap ads, you know, in the middle of something. I’m not going to be talking about a crime scene and then go into an ad.
MT: True crime has been around for a bit. How do you feel like the genre has changed in your mind? And how is your approach to your own show and your network changed?
AF: I think that true crime is changing. We’ve only been around a very short six years. I say, in podcasting, it’s like dog years, it feels like longer. But I think we were the first show that gave people a next step. That was the different thing that we were doing. I’ve watched the rest of true crime slowly change. Because as the fans listened, I was like, yes, this is horrific. This is tragic. Individuals can make a huge difference if they’re mobilized together. So I think what we’ve done really well is tell people this story, talk about the injustice. This is how you can make a difference. So I think that what we’re seeing is a more engaged community. Engaging with true crime used to be like, this dirty secret everyone had. We’re all into it, but no one talks about it. And it’s more mainstream now.
MT: There’s a lot more competition. How do you continue to distinguish yourself?
AF: The thing that I’ve been really proud of doing is the amount of original reporting that we’ve done, especially for a weekly show. Everyone has these limited series that are original reporting. We do a new case every single week, all year, there are no seasons. So it’s 48 to 52 episodes, potentially a year. And we have a team of reporters all over the country doing that. And I just don’t think that’s anything — I mean, even you see TV shows, like Dateline, they do like 20 in a season. And yeah, we are doing something that no one else is, is even capable of doing.
MT: What’s your division of labor between podcasting and managing your business?
AF: I would say it’s really split 50/50 between business and then creative. My goal is that as the company grows, and I bring in more upper management, that I can focus more on the creative. I think I’m actually good at running a business, but my highest value to the company is in the creative. And so I hope to shift back to that a little bit more. But since day one, I’ve had to split it 50/50.
MT: Who are the people who have been your inspiration, or who’ve given you advice in building something from scratch?
AF: I’m in a little bit of a bubble. So our whole company is in Indianapolis. And so I actually haven’t had a ton of chances to interact with other people. So most of the inspiration I get is through being a fan, listening to other shows. The show that got the world into podcasting, and me into this was Serial. To me, that’s the gold standard of what a show could be. So creatively, I think that was kind of like what spawned it all. And business wise, I’ve had to piece that together. I don’t know any entrepreneurs. I didn’t come from a family like that. And I’ve luckily worked for two startup companies before I started this. So I had a little, like a little bit of a sense of what it would take. And then I found people along the way, like when I had found a weakness, I would find somebody who was good at that thing.
MT: Podcasting is such an intimate medium that you’d probably forge some pretty interesting connections along the way. So that’s why I was surprised when you said, “I don’t really talk to anyone.”
AF: My deepest connection is truly with people who are working in the true crime community. So when it comes to like the creative —not the creative podcasting, but the knowledge of true crime — I can call up people who work for the FBI, or the police department, and like that has been the highest value and like, yeah, and I just want make our content so great. And then on the business side, the one person I do call up all the time is [UTA Head of Audio] Oren Rosenbaum. Any question about podcasting, he knows the answer. So when you have his phone number, you don’t really need a lot.
MT: You approach very sensitive subjects and subjects that often can be very upsetting. I know you said you said you try to approach it with some sensitivity and a sense of purpose and activism. But the subjects that you’re talking about, crime, can be very political. So I’m curious how you navigate not contributing to a climate of fear around crime?
AF: The climate of fear around the content for us goes back to education. It’s not saying, “Everyone needs to be terrified all the time.” But there is this element, we call it “pre-paranoid.” Some of you might seem a little a little paranoid, but you’re prepared. The world is what it is. But here are the tools. Here’s the things you need to know, to better arm yourself.
And I mean, we had literally just got this email a couple of days ago from a listener. We did an episode on online scams. And she wrote in and said that 30 seconds after she finished the episode, she got a call. That was the exact scam that we did an episode on. And she’s like, I would have never known otherwise. And so we don’t go there with like, the world is terrible, lock your doors, don’t go out, hide your kids, hide your wife, none of that stuff. But if you can make people feel empowered, then it’s a completely different spin.
MT: How are you thinking about growing your business?
AF: I want to expand the brands that we’ve made, and the success of those, I want to expand those into different mediums. So I don’t want to take everything, necessarily all of our IP and just make a bunch of one offs. In a perfect world, I want to take Crime Junkie and see, what does that look like as a TV show in a really meaningful way? We’ve had plenty of people who just see the success and they’re like, yeah, we’ll put it on TV. But I’m like, if you do it, if you do it wrong over here, it ruins everything that I’ve worked so hard for.
MT: What is the right way to do it versus the wrong way?
AF: I want to do it in a way that feels authentic to that medium. Like, you can’t just put a camera on me reading. I don’t want to do it in a way that cheapens the content. And more than anything, I’ve worked really hard to protect our mission, which is to do right by these victims, their families. I don’t want to create any more harm in a case where someone has already experienced so much. And so I think the wrong way to do that would be — for six years, we’ve done a really good job of this and then if all of a sudden it goes to a different medium and people start feeling exploited if the cases are sensationalized. So it’s why I’ve been really protective. And when I go do that, I want to do it in a way where I have complete control. And so I can make sure that that mission translates to TV.
MT: It’s really hard to start a podcast from scratch, especially if you don’t have the support of a big company these days. You did it on your own. But it was a little bit of an earlier moment in the ecosystem. Do you feel like, given how difficult it is to discover podcasts today and to launch a podcast, especially, that you would do the same thing today?
AF: I actually would, because the stuff that I was doing back then I think still would work now. Because, you know, there was some grassroots stuff that might not get enough attention. I used to travel for work. And so in the early days, I was like, OK, if I’m a podcast listener myself, I listen in the car. When I would travel for work, I would be taping up Crime Junkie cards in restaurant bathrooms, I’d be leaving them everywhere. I used to have a magnet that I would put on my car and drive around and tell people about it. So there’s some of that stuff that, I don’t know if it would get the traction. But I would contact everyone who had a similar audience as I thought I needed and do cross promotions. And that audio roster motions is still one of the most successful ways that we bring audiences to brand new shows. And so I do think there’s still plenty of room for new shows to get traction. Yeah. But when you bring them the content has got to be great.
When I started, Crime Junkie was a completely different format than anything else that was out there. And I think there’s probably formats that are brand new, there’s fresh ways to look at it. And if someone had that, if you’re just creating the same thing that’s been created a bunch of times, you’re not going to get traction. You’ve got to have your own spin.
MT: This is your second Cannes Lions. What are the conversations you’re having this year like versus last year? Are there any sort of differences in terms of the things that people are asking you or talking about? Are people trying to make you use AI?
AF: No one here is trying to make me use AI. I’m pretty against it. Most of the conversations are pretty much the same. I mean, I’ve been dealing with a lot of advertisers who have the same questions that you’ve been asking. I think that with every year Crime Junkie is a more known commodity. It’s a known brand. So I spent less time this year, I think explaining who I am, and more time explaining why they should pick us.
MT: What do you think distinguishes you from other pods?
AF: I think it’s our audience, they’re engaged in a way that is very hard to find. So the first employee I ever hired was a fan engagement specialist. Because more than making more content, editing more content, I was like, I have to be in communication with our fans. Podcasting always felt like a very intimate medium for me. I knew the person couldn’t hear me, but like, it felt like we had this relationship. And that is something that I’ve worked really hard on to continue to foster in people.
And so we have a whole team now, that is making sure our fans feel heard, connected to us. And I think that’s the biggest difference. So when we recommend something, it’s taken more seriously. I have such a respect for people’s money. I lived paycheck-to-paycheck. So like even asking someone to buy something, I will not advertise stuff that I wouldn’t want to use myself or don’t use myself. And so I think that we’ve garnered a level of respect from our audience, and community and engagement. That level of trust, when it’s my voice, is something that I don’t think a lot of people even come close to.
MT: I’m curious what you think about the kind of parody stuff that’s out there that seems kind of somewhat based on you, such as Selena Gomez in Only Murders in the Building.
AF: I don’t think that is based on me. I think they had a Sarah Koenig consult on that show.
MT: I was talking to somebody else who thought it was based on you.
AF: It’s flattering but I don’t think so.
MT: What’s the experience been like working with SiriusXM?
AF: It’s been great. I mean, we have a network that’s, you know, bigger than us by so much, it has been so cool to tap into the resources they have, the relationships they have. And it’s because of Sirius that we got to launch our radio channel. So we’ve got the first ever true crime channel on SiriusXM. I’ve got a new show with them as well. And it’s like, it’s weird to even be in the orbit. Right? Like, I mean, they’ve got these like massive celebrities.
MT: I saw you on a panel at their event earlier this year and you were sitting next to Kevin Hart.
AF: And Kelly Clarkson. I was just like, “I don’t know if they know that I like I’m not supposed to be here.” Like impostor syndrome.
MT: One more Sirius question. What was the reason for why you wanted to go Sirius? Everybody else was knocking on the door too.
AF: It was their ability to reach people in radio. I mean, from the very beginning, we were having conversations about radio, it was the fact that they’ve been doing this so long. I mean, even before podcasting, in, in radio, and streaming, they had these big brand relationships, and I really felt like that’s more and more where podcasting was moving. And I have seen that come to fruition over the last few years, where, yes, we still have some direct response, but it is more and more brand awareness, just brand ads, rather than like, “go use this specific promo code.”. And I was really recognizing that Sirius had those long-established relationships with those really big brands. And that’s kind of what I put my bet on.
MT: Sitting up on the panel with Kelly Clarkson, she’s a person who’s a talk show host, hosts a million different programs, is also a musical artist. Would you be interested in doing something else, or a podcast that is not true crime?
AF: I think other stuff is interesting to me. I only have so many hours in the day. And I, at least in this moment, I’m not willing to give up the stuff that I’m doing to make room for something else. I just love what I’m doing so much and as I get older, as the business matures — and maybe that’s changed. I’ve done little projects here and there. We do a horror fiction show every Halloween. Me and my brother made that the very first Halloween together, where we wrote the stories. I recorded all of them. He edited them. So I’ve done little projects. We had a comedy show called It’s a Wonderful Life where we read Christmas letters. So I’ve experimented. I think it’s fun to like, pop out of my lane for a little bit. It’s why I wrote a fiction novel. Yeah. I don’t know that I could do like a weekly show yet. Because I don’t want to give up [Audiochuck] and I don’t want to give up Crime Junkie. Those are my loves.